FB16 DIT - Boost Pressure - UK

[moojy]

I fitted the TDI tuning unit claims 210HP/308Nm Torque.
https://tdi-tuning.com/car/subaru/levorg/16-gt-s-168-bhp-170-ps-125-kw-250-nm-184-lbft/crtd4-uni-channel-petrol-tuning-box-chip

It is a nice and easy piece of kit to add and would recomend it.
Shame with the Levorg auto configuration, the power comes after the party is over.

 

[miketyson]

Interesting, have you checked it on a dyno? Doctor. Feel much power incerase in driving?

 

[Dimo Grozev]

I am also interested of this box. Could you give please little bit more information about what is the difference. Is it removing little bit the lag when you accelerate?

 

[moojy]

I havent checked its claims on a dyno, wonder how cheap/easy that would be to do as I chose the box to avoid the hassle of a full re-map service I used for my previous Imprezas and Legacy. It is literally plug and play.
It does feel like it gives an increase in driving but not that noticeable I could write home about it. So yes I would recommend for generally making the car a bit more lively when pulling out etc. But for sudden changes in speed it doesnt change anything really. What I expect you mean by the "lag when accelerate" - I find the CVT will NOT change gear when wanted - only when it feels like it. That is a half second to full 1 second delay if for example you slam the pedal down to the floor. In gearchange terms that is a aeon of delay.

To be clear I do not need an increase in power - nice to have 270-300 bhp (I had it before) but am happy with 210 as well.
What I need is the power to be available when I ask for it.
Put it another way - no point in even having 300 bhp if I have to wait a second for it to arrive.
It's not a turbo lag - I've had much more laggy subaru turbos than this (had around 10 models over the years) and I have no issue with that at all, in fact rather like it.
With this baby, the rev counter is climbing, engine is screaming, whatever - but nothing kicks in for a measureable delayed response. That aint turbo - it is lazy transmission response.
Note: this is my first auto; all manuals previous. Is this normal, are all autos this garbage on sudden gear change?

Another example - a 3 point turn can take an age because the transmission is so slow at going from reverse to forward - again in my manual I could flip the car around in seconds - 3 point, 5 point it didnt matter. Here I have to wait seconds on each movement. Try putting it into reverse, then as it is going backwards, flip to drive (forwards). Darn thing keeps rolling backwards for another second while it contacts the planet zong to request permission to change gear or something! I mean what is going on, I pushed the lever, what are you thinking about? Move in the other direction now - not after 1-2 secs of rolling backwards.

The same feeling I get when I push suddenly on the accelerator during normal driving. The car just ignores you at first.

Was thinking of importing a 2.0L to see if the S# mode "fixes" this laziness. I have heard it doesnt have this dippiness but I'm not sure what those others are comparing against, maybe their expectations of a gear change are different to begin with because they have never driven a manual car and dont know what it feels like to have a gear change the same week you requested it.

 

[Dimo Grozev]

I am absolutely agree with you. I was asking you about this delay of the transmission when you press pedal down while you are driving normal. I was driving before different kind of cars with automatic gear and I never experienced delay like this. Even with automatic transmission where need to shift down the gear it's responding faster than here with CVT where doesn't have gear and I was expecting to be faster. For me also it's not important to have so much power, but I like when I need to overtake some other car to can do it faster and safely to go back on the road. I was driving Nissan Murano 2006 with CVT and 3.5L about 280hp engine, and there you can feel it really like you are driving with manual gear. Even I can say that it's better because it's responding immediately and after that you don't have shifting of the gear. There you have more power and I was thinking that on levorg it's not enough. That way I was thinking to buy this chip box, if it is possible to reduce the delay. Even on outback 2009 with 3.0L 240 hp without turbo there is no delay. Levorg it's with twin scroll turbo and I can see that really the engine is responding immediately and increasing the revolution but the transmission need time to be adjusted, if press not full the pedal it's responding little bit faster, I don't know where is the problem, no enough power or some limitations of the transmission.
The other problem also what you say about changing from D to R or vice versa is making me nervous specially when I want to park little bit faster I shifting and start waiting until it's ready.. This I am not sure how it's with the others CVT, but for sure on normal automatic transmission it's faster.
What I read from others forums this chip box its giving fake signal to the boost pressure sensor and push the turbo charger to increase the pressure while on computer it's showing normal. I don't know how this one it will reflect to the engine in the future.
And may question is after this box do you fell that the car is responding little bit faster or it is the same?
I read in some Australian forum that there is people who are making remote tuning and they can adjust also the transmission, but I don't know how much they are familiar with CVT and what kind of problem I can get after that ..
Best regards

 

[SkyBeam]

I find the CVT will NOT change gear when wanted - only when it feels like it. That is a half second to full 1 second delay if for example you slam the pedal down to the floor. In gearchange terms that is a aeon of delay.

I think this is pretty much the nature of belt-triven CVTs. I just sumbled across a very interesting presentation about the Nissan extroid CVT (Toroidal CVT) which seems to be better suited for high-torque and quick response applications. Watch the video here:

You might also want to watch an additional explanation of the principle on the Torotrak Full-Torodial Variator video here:

I didn't find any teardown video for a Nissan Cedric gearbox which seems to use this technology since a while now (never heard of this model yet anyway but thsi might just be because it's not available in my country).

 

[moojy]

I am absolutely agree with you. For me also it's not important to have so much power, but I like when I need to overtake some other car to can do it faster and safely to go back on the road. I was driving Nissan Murano 2006 with CVT and 3.5L about 280hp engine, and there you can feel it really like you are driving with manual gear. Even I can say that it's better because it's responding immediately and after that you don't have shifting of the gear. There you have more power and I was thinking that on levorg it's not enough. That way I was thinking to buy this chip box, if it is possible to reduce the delay. Even on outback 2009 with 3.0L 240 hp without turbo there is no delay. Levorg it's with twin scroll turbo and I can see that really the engine is responding immediately and increasing the revolution but the transmission need time to be adjusted, if press not full the pedal it's responding little bit faster, I don't know where is the problem, no enough power or some limitations of the transmission.
And may question is after this box do you fell that the car is responding little bit faster or it is the same?
Best regards

I think the car is responding a little bit faster, yes. But only a little bit. It still frustrates me. I also agree with you about how power is delivered and wonder whether a Levorg with way more power and the S# mode just keeping it in higher revs will make it feel more responsive. There is at least one guy I have discussed this with who has imported a 2.0L to the UK and he drives an Impreza STI and an Evo normally. Seems to feel it is acceptable to him with 2.0L/S# though nothing like the STI/Evo (not meant to be).
It would be really helpful if someone in Oz could describe the real difference since they have both units there.
Meanwhile I can recommend the TDI tuning box as a small improvement only. They are a reputable outfit to my experience.

 

[moojy]

I think this is pretty much the nature of belt-triven CVTs. I just sumbled across a very interesting presentation about the Nissan extroid CVT (Toroidal CVT) which seems to be better suited for high-torque and quick response applications. Watch the video here:

You might also want to watch an additional explanation of the principle on the Torotrak Full-Torodial Variator video here:

I didn't find any teardown video for a Nissan Cedric gearbox which seems to use this technology since a while now (never heard of this model yet anyway but thsi might just be because it's not available in my country).

I was afraid that was the case... but still wonder if and how the CVT can be tricked into making the right decisions - I notice that as Dimo says above - squeezing it gently persuades it into smooth and reasonably rapid gear changes. So it *is* possible for it to respond just using a different technique - I wondered whether different programming would fix this - is it different in say a 2.0L STI? i.e. the CVT is not under my direct control - it just needs to be driven by a smarter system in there that recognises a sudden "athletic" change in driving style and acts accordingly. It seems to be programmed to be in permanent dopey mode to me.

 

[SkyBeam]

So it *is* possible for it to respond just using a different technique

I have no problem with my 1.6DIT CVT on usual daily drives. Even overtakin and curvy roads. However what it does not like at all is to floor it. If you do so it will simply do nothing at all. But if you give the pedal a gently push and softly but gradually push it down further and further the car goes quite quick and takes response quite reasonably (given its 1.6t weight and a small 1.6l engine).
Also keep an eye on the speedo. The CVT does not give you this feeling of "brutal acceleration" as it does everything very smooth and the revs do not go up and jump down on every gear shift. If you push it gently it will stay at ~2200rpm and just accelerate quickly. It's also a mental thing that people often think this car accelerates slowly. When actually looking at the pure numbers it's pretty quick. But it does not give you this "kick" each time it does a hard gear shift or reving it up in 2nd gear to the limiter and then dropping RPM in hard way a couple of times. Even though the speed increases pretty quickly. It's hard to describe but it's also a psychological effect. People are used to equal power to the engine roar and wait for the hard gear shifts to get that feeling of "race-style-acceleration". While with the CVT it just steadily accelerates and the RPM basically remains at a certain level.
I am often surprised when my navigation system reminds me not to overspeed right after turning out from a crossing and accelerating. So I already hit the speed limit.

Also the Levorg is clearly a cruising experience and not one of those rough racing-like cars like a WRX (haha, even thoug it looks like it), en EVO or a Focus RS. However it rides extremely smoothly when putting in cruise control and just let the car do its thing. I very often just put on cruise control and control the speed by pressing the "+" button until I hit the target speed. Then the car accelerates in most-efficient way (not mix it up with highest performance) keping the engine at the sweet spot with ~2100rpm and 0psi boost. Accelerating smoothly and comfortably.
If you're looking for less efficiency but more maximum power then start pressing the pedal slowly down. Even flooring it out is possible, but dont just hammer it down as then something unexpected to manual-shift driving experienca happens: The car does NOTHING. I think the reason for this is the CVT technology as such. What happens if you ask maximum power from the engine is that it needs to rev up to a very inefficient but maximum power level. So it needs tor rev up to ~6500rpm. This takes some time. However not too much for a small/lightweight 1.6l engine. BUT the CVT itself needs also to build hydraulic pressure on the pulleys in order to deal with the added torque. The more torque you add the more pressure you need on the pulleys to avoid the chain slipping (which would essentially scratch/destroy the pulleys). So yes, it needs some time to "prepare" for the added torque to be transmitted. And this is likely what you're seeing when flooring the pedal.

If you push the pedal down gently it can do both, building up the pressure while rising the RPM and transferring the added power directly to the wheels.
Some people of course say a car should do what you expect and not the driver should adapt to the concept. While I tend to agree partially it is certainly not the case with the Levorg CVT. The driver needs to adapt and adjust to the technical circumstances up to some point in order to harmonize with the concept. Once you get used to it you can enjoy a relaxing ride and even move your car quickly as you like. Of course it's still a heavy car with a small displacement engine so essentially it's better used as a comfortable cruiser but if you treat it correctly you can actually drive it sporty.
Btw. I never actually use S mode, always I mode. S mode seems to be a bit more responsive and does not lower RPM to ~1000rpm so it does not idle out the turbo. So you might get more responsiveness accelerating from low speeds (exiting crossings, roundabouts...).


So I recommend to get used to it and wrap your head around this quirks or get another car.

 

[moojy]

You're spot on with your explanation, it is exactly the conclusions I had come to (minus the hydraulic part - that is new to me, thanks) about how the CVT needs to be "cajoled" into operation. And I agree - Subaru has (typically) over-engineered things beautifully - the 1.6L engine is very impressive for its size and the weight of the car; the CVT is undoubtedly refined and clever, etc.
But - the drive is designed for "trundling along the highway" (=cruising) for best efficiency - and is lurchy everywhere else. Strange I should say that when I also say "the CVT is smooth and refined"? What I mean is that in city driving (=stop/start traffic or moving through junctions and so on) - the car does nothing much then lurches into that "trundle" mode it has been designed for; and so overall the intended smoothness of the experience is defeated. If you have to brake because of the huge delay in pulling out means you missed your chance; then see a gap and want to jump in once again you get a delayed lurching effect of trying to get into moving traffic. And so on. The CVT simply can't time it right as it is a few seconds behind you and the rest of the traffic. So manoeuvring through traffic can be quite stressful. Combine that with the size and weight of the car and you feel like you are driving a heavy goods delivery vehicle that just has to sit in lane and hope someone gives them way.

Yes the car is quick to handle once going - "not racey, but really pacey" I would say. Quite pleasurable to drive on windy roads (because of its handling, not the engine or transmission)... as long as you dont need to overtake against on-coming traffic As it takes so long to pick up you often have to abort. I know the racing types, I had one before, I dont expect the Levorg to be that at all, looks aside. But I do expect a gear change to happen when needed; and the need is indicated by pressing on the peddle. Soft or hard press - it is simply way way too late to change gear to be of any use.

Fraid the S mode doesnt make enough of a difference really. Because as you say it simply pops the revs up and perhaps delays the inbuilt desire to go to as low a gear and low revs as possible. But if by pressing paddles and things you have already managed to get the revs up finally, "S" has nothing to add afaics.
Add to the car a few passengers and a bootful of luggage (it is a touring estate after all) and you can barely get uphill at all as the 1.6L is simply too asthmatic. And the fuel economy is atrocious when you use such a small engine inefficiently. It is actually worse than the 270hp 2.5L of my previous car when under load. If I was brutal - I would say the cars main design goal is to carry only the driver along an empty road. Kinda self-defeating.

I think you summarised it beautifully, indeed I did come to the conclusion a while ago that "I need to get used to it" (i.e. work out how to drive it) - and I have... but that doesnt mean I "enjoy being used to it", if you know what I mean
My wife (who owns a little run-around Mazda 3, no-match for the Levorg in engineering or power - on paper) was finally persuaded to drive the Levorg. Sadly she "wasnt used to it" and her first response was "its really slow and heavy isnt it?" Gosh that hurt - a Subaru being unpleasant and difficult to drive? And the reason we have CVT's only and manual is forbidden is so it can "appeal to the female market" according to Subaru! How ironic.

And again I agree with your thinking - I am thinking of getting another car - the 2.0L Levorg! Which is what I was curious about.... I do wonder if it makes this feeling of "a freewheeling go-kart" effect reduce? Does the 2.0L extra power and torque help overcome the pull out response? Or is the "S#" reprogrammed again in a way that really helps where the "S" is useless?
As you say if the CVT is incapable of making large gear adjustments I guess permanently higher revs should mean we always have a near/close gear change in "responsive" driving requirements?

I just want to be able to pull in and out of traffic and in and out of corners like a normal car can do and not feel totally bullied by other road users :-(

 

[Kash]

You're spot on with your explanation, it is exactly the conclusions I had come to (minus the hydraulic part - that is new to me, thanks) about how the CVT needs to be "cajoled" into operation. And I agree - Subaru has (typically) over-engineered things beautifully - the 1.6L engine is very impressive for its size and the weight of the car; the CVT is undoubtedly refined and clever, etc.
But - the drive is designed for "trundling along the highway" (=cruising) for best efficiency - and is lurchy everywhere else. Strange I should say that when I also say "the CVT is smooth and refined"? What I mean is that in city driving (=stop/start traffic or moving through junctions and so on) - the car does nothing much then lurches into that "trundle" mode it has been designed for; and so overall the intended smoothness of the experience is defeated. If you have to brake because of the huge delay in pulling out means you missed your chance; then see a gap and want to jump in once again you get a delayed lurching effect of trying to get into moving traffic. And so on. The CVT simply can't time it right as it is a few seconds behind you and the rest of the traffic. So manoeuvring through traffic can be quite stressful. Combine that with the size and weight of the car and you feel like you are driving a heavy goods delivery vehicle that just has to sit in lane and hope someone gives them way.

Yes the car is quick to handle once going - "not racey, but really pacey" I would say. Quite pleasurable to drive on windy roads (because of its handling, not the engine or transmission)... as long as you dont need to overtake against on-coming traffic As it takes so long to pick up you often have to abort. I know the racing types, I had one before, I dont expect the Levorg to be that at all, looks aside. But I do expect a gear change to happen when needed; and the need is indicated by pressing on the peddle. Soft or hard press - it is simply way way too late to change gear to be of any use.

Fraid the S mode doesnt make enough of a difference really. Because as you say it simply pops the revs up and perhaps delays the inbuilt desire to go to as low a gear and low revs as possible. But if by pressing paddles and things you have already managed to get the revs up finally, "S" has nothing to add afaics.
Add to the car a few passengers and a bootful of luggage (it is a touring estate after all) and you can barely get uphill at all as the 1.6L is simply too asthmatic. And the fuel economy is atrocious when you use such a small engine inefficiently. It is actually worse than the 270hp 2.5L of my previous car when under load. If I was brutal - I would say the cars main design goal is to carry only the driver along an empty road. Kinda self-defeating.

I think you summarised it beautifully, indeed I did come to the conclusion a while ago that "I need to get used to it" (i.e. work out how to drive it) - and I have... but that doesnt mean I "enjoy being used to it", if you know what I mean
My wife (who owns a little run-around Mazda 3, no-match for the Levorg in engineering or power - on paper) was finally persuaded to drive the Levorg. Sadly she "wasnt used to it" and her first response was "its really slow and heavy isnt it?" Gosh that hurt - a Subaru being unpleasant and difficult to drive? And the reason we have CVT's only and manual is forbidden is so it can "appeal to the female market" according to Subaru! How ironic.

And again I agree with your thinking - I am thinking of getting another car - the 2.0L Levorg! Which is what I was curious about.... I do wonder if it makes this feeling of "a freewheeling go-kart" effect reduce? Does the 2.0L extra power and torque help overcome the pull out response? Or is the "S#" reprogrammed again in a way that really helps where the "S" is useless?
As you say if the CVT is incapable of making large gear adjustments I guess permanently higher revs should mean we always have a near/close gear change in "responsive" driving requirements?

I just want to be able to pull in and out of traffic and in and out of corners like a normal car can do and not feel totally bullied by other road users :-(

Bloody hell moojy,i,d just persuaded myself again to get one and you have put me off...

Looks like a 335d xdrive is back on the cards...(surprisingly similar price)

 

[moojy]

Yes the price of diesels has tumbled as they are out of fashion now everyone has finally realised how poisonous they are and their economy in city driving is barely better than modern efficient petrols.

I think you need to drive one and see for yourself. I test drove a 335d a few years back and it had a whallop of power that it simply could not control, was scary dangerous around corners as the "X" is part time it comes on after you have started slipping badly and flashes lights and pulls klaaxons to try to save your butt - as opposed to actually providing control and grip in the first place to prevent such a problem. Maybe I am not used to putting 350hp through just two rear wheels around bends and made the mistake of pushing on through the corner as I was used to doing in my Impreza. You have probably been driving 2 wheelers for a lot longer than me Kash, as I switched to full-time all-wheel 15 years ago and have changed my driving style. I have also heard that the "x drive" is a maintenance nightmare as BMW are not very good at 4wheels (which is why they acquired LandRover a few decades ago to learn from them - later sold them off of course, after deciding real 4wheel wasnt for them, a fake one will do in marketing speak - so they launched X5, xdrive and all kinds of other "X"s).
The overall drive of the 335d was quite neutral feeling - like the Levorg.. sadly they have tried hard to emulate "German numb driving" I think as a deliberate market strategy - instead of the nice feedback of my Impreza.
The 3 series was also small - like my previous Impreza; probably helped it stay on the road, the Levorg has considerably more room, but as I mentioned if it is loaded up you will need to use "S" mode to get it uphill as "I" seems designed to cripple any output in order to save fuel and keep Brussels happy. I guess at least you have that option. In "S" it manages uphill with boot, passenger and loaded roofbox fine.

So in summary - if it is raw power in a straight line plus slightly better overall economy then the BMW is the way to go. If it is handling, grip and size it is the Levorg. On the open flat road the long-distance mpg is similar between the 335d and the 1.6L Levorg which is remarkable. But you do need to get used to the quirkiness of the CVT as has been said here. If you are genuinely used to the likes of a 3.5L diesel engine you will find a CVT/1.6L much less responsive by comparison. (I still wonder how the 2.0L Levorg would stack up).

Anyway - meant to say - I am in Leicester from the 26th-30th inclusive if you want to pop by and try the Levorg with TDI-tuning unit in the flesh.
If you are already in the mindset for a Panzer, the 335d is a powerful and formidable car in the right hands. Will save you a trip.

(PS - even with my concerns about the Levorg, I would not personally choose an 335xd over it)

 

[Kash]

Yes the price of diesels has tumbled as they are out of fashion now everyone has finally realised how poisonous they are and their economy in city driving is barely better than modern efficient petrols.

I think you need to drive one and see for yourself. I test drove a 335d a few years back and it had a whallop of power that it simply could not control, was scary dangerous around corners as the "X" is part time it comes on after you have started slipping badly and flashes lights and pulls klaaxons to try to save your butt - as opposed to actually providing control and grip in the first place to prevent such a problem. Maybe I am not used to putting 350hp through just two rear wheels around bends and made the mistake of pushing on through the corner as I was used to doing in my Impreza. You have probably been driving 2 wheelers for a lot longer than me Kash, as I switched to full-time all-wheel 15 years ago and have changed my driving style. I have also heard that the "x drive" is a maintenance nightmare as BMW are not very good at 4wheels (which is why they acquired LandRover a few decades ago to learn from them - later sold them off of course, after deciding real 4wheel wasnt for them, a fake one will do in marketing speak - so they launched X5, xdrive and all kinds of other "X"s).
The overall drive of the 335d was quite neutral feeling - like the Levorg.. sadly they have tried hard to emulate "German numb driving" I think as a deliberate market strategy - instead of the nice feedback of my Impreza.
The 3 series was also small - like my previous Impreza; probably helped it stay on the road, the Levorg has considerably more room, but as I mentioned if it is loaded up you will need to use "S" mode to get it uphill as "I" seems designed to cripple any output in order to save fuel and keep Brussels happy. I guess at least you have that option. In "S" it manages uphill with boot, passenger and loaded roofbox fine.

So in summary - if it is raw power in a straight line plus slightly better overall economy then the BMW is the way to go. If it is handling, grip and size it is the Levorg. On the open flat road the long-distance mpg is similar between the 335d and the 1.6L Levorg which is remarkable. But you do need to get used to the quirkiness of the CVT as has been said here. If you are genuinely used to the likes of a 3.5L diesel engine you will find a CVT/1.6L much less responsive by comparison. (I still wonder how the 2.0L Levorg would stack up).

Anyway - meant to say - I am in Leicester from the 26th-30th inclusive if you want to pop by and try the Levorg with TDI-tuning unit in the flesh.
If you are already in the mindset for a Panzer, the 335d is a powerful and formidable car in the right hands. Will save you a trip.

(PS - even with my concerns about the Levorg, I would not personally choose an 335xd over it)

Oh christ,I don't know....I've looked at so many cars over the past few months I've made myself dizzy!

I still think the levorg,in theory,suits my lifestyle extremely well.....tough,proper four wheel drive,individual.

One thing that did strike me worked the lack of standard safety systems on the bimmers compared to Subaru.

I'm pretty used to rwd and part time awd vehicles...I used to drive Vauxhall omegas and senators and currently drive 4wd Skoda superb estates at work but full time awd is the better option to my mind.

Thanks moojy

 

[Kash]

Done 28,000 miles and everything seems fine. Must admit to sometimes feeling the box doesnt make that much difference. I think when it takes a car 1 sec to make a sudden change in gear, it doesnt matter how much torque or power you have. So there are times when I think this doesnt feel any different - if you cannot persuade the cvt to do anything.

Do you have the slightly later version with eyesight?

I remember reading that the transmission settings were altered on later versions to improve the drive.

 

[moojy]

Mine was last uk model before eyesight so got it cheaper.
Btw am available Friday pm and Sunday if you want to see car.
My mobile is 07796 175 313. Quicker to contact by sms than forum posts.

 

[mvpluidex]

What fuels are you guys running with these mods/remaps?

 

[mvpluidex]

I'd be curious to see if anyone has tested performance on a tuned 1.6 Levorg, I know for sure it can certainly do with improved response and boost management.